My main concern about 2 SP slots is that it will be frustrating to have to pick two SP to start on certain days. I’m pretty ok with the rest of this logic here and I’m willing to try it out, with the caveat that if we see greatly differing valuations between season-long formats and H2H formats (again, cc @eamuscatuli), this number may need to be tweaked in 2019. Basically, we shouldn’t see SP valuation tank or become more volatile in the H2H formats, right?
I definitely want to create a weekly gameplay that remains engaging through the whole season, as that is the primary value proposition of a H2H format versus a roto/season-long points. I believe the market with cap penalties and the 30-day re-auction rule will greatly curtail streaming, but I know that is basically the number one concern of anyone serious who plays H2H.
I will say that GS caps are off the table, as that is punitive for teams who get a real dud start. I think it comes down to either a soft cap and more SP slots or no soft cap and less SP slots, and I’m wrapping my head around the notion that a soft cap implicitly encourages streaming (which we’ve all equated to bad), so that’s where I’m at right now.
Paging @murph3699 so he can get me to flip-flop before the end of the night
I haven’t seen SP valuations tank with 2 SP’s, and in this format I think they would stay right in-line with SP valuations in Total Points leagues. I have seen SP valuations inflate with 3+ SP’s (without other roster controls), regardless of an IP cap, and that’s because of the edge in stashing SP’s on the bench to be used at will with the additional SP slot or two. An IP cap dampens the effect- but it still embraces streaming as a strategy.
The 30-day auction rule won’t have much of an effect with a deep, 40-man roster when just a few teams can just stash a ton of arms early on in the season, even if they aren’t being used, and dry up the market. That’s when the prices for lesser SP’s will go up later in the year since there’s not many SP’s left in FA.
In a market sense, 2 SP’s forces a more even distribution of SP talent among the league- which, in turn, allows for alternate roster strategies (hitting, bullpen, and/or prospect-focused) to have an equal chance at success over time rather than a pitching-heavy approach to roster building having the edge every year, year after year.
The fundamental difference in strategy between roto and H2H, when it comes to building a pitching staff, is short term vs long term. With a 40 man roster, in roto, I’m sticking with 9-10 guys. 4 of them are probably “always” starts, a few more are matchup/park dependent and the rest are depth. I’m not counting minor leaguers.
In H2H, especially with points, I’m throwing volume out there. I will roll out the bare minimum of hitters and relievers. That’s why caps are necessary.
I do believe 48 hour auctions will curb, to some degree, streaming. Then again those of us trying to manipulate the soft 1500 IP cap know how to play that game the final week of September lol. However, if you load up on 500 pt $1starters on your bench you have all the streaming options you’ll ever need in house.
- 12 starts per scoring period or
- 60 IP cap with 3-4 starts per day
- early August trade deadline
- Combine all-star week with following week
- Skip last weekend of season. Most players sit, a la week 17 in NFL.
Also, will there be a hard cap for hitter starts per scoring period? I ask because of the two catchers slots in the starting lineup
I personally don’t like having to choose between all of my options on a single day because I have a bunch of guys going the same day. Let me choose how to distribute my starts or innings up to the agreed upon cap.
This is why SP slots need to be limited. Any cap that is decided is arbitrary and an artificial control on pitching, and (as a soft cap) it’s a “rule” that can always be broken. Limited SP slots works as a natural cap so there is absolutely no way to throw volume at any matchup and no reason to stash a bunch of pitchers for the right situation.
Bingo- and with 2 active SP slots, there’s a real roster cost to loading up on 500pt $1 SP’s because you can only use two of them on any day. The only way to neutralize this strategy- other than with a hard cap or roster caps on SP’s- is with a smaller number of SP slots.
But allowing you that option would also make possible the volume strategy you bring up here. Pitching schedules are quite random throughout the year, so in practice it’s not all the time that you’re losing out on good performances because of the limit. It happens, but I argue that the net effect of this on the league and the design as a whole is not nearly as significant as what the “volume strategy” does for the league’s gameplay/market.
Thank you @nivshah for the format and the debate and the time and consideration! I’m very much looking forward to this format, and to seeing how the settings play out for ottoneu!
If it helps, I can set up a public league with a big-box brand with the IP cap/3 SP setting if you just want to track (not join or anything) what happens in the alternative setup.
All I have to add is to remind people that we’re talking about 12 teams drafting and adding pitchers throughout the year; even when you have three or more guys starting on the same day at one point in the season, with off-days, scratch starts, short starts, long rest, injuries, etc, SP schedules all ultimately even out for everyone over the year.
Which is just to say, 2 SP’s is nothing to be afraid of
Ok, well at some point this debate has to end, and we’re going to do that here.
The caveat for everything below is that we should keep the conversation going through the season and I’m more than willing to revisit any / all these decisions in the 2018-19 offseason.
We’re going to go with 2 SP slots for H2H game modes, and no inning or games started cap. Bid on SP and build your roster accordingly.
- In 2018, we’re looking at a 25 week schedule, with a couple of longer weeks, one for the opening week (3/29-4/8) and one around the All-Star break (7/16-7/29). Thanks for the note on this @murph3699
- H2H will have 1 catcher slot. Again, thanks to @murph3699 for pointing this out. There is a very good chance this ends up leading to switching to 1 C slot across the board, which will be finalized within the next week.
- We will have 3 playoff configurations that any league can opt-in to:
a. Wild-card, 2-week championship matchup
b. No wild-card, 2-week both rounds
c. No wild-card, 2-week championship matchup
All these options would start on 9/3, with option c. being the only way to avoid the last week of the regular season.
- The trade deadline will remain on 8/31 this season.
Both H2H and playoff options will be made available in the league settings and on the league creation page very soon - hopefully by the end of this week.
Thanks to everyone who participated in this conversation! I’m happy to see the amount of interest and excitement around this format, and I am looking forward to the first year of H2H Ottoneu Fantasy Baseball.
That all sounds good for H2H, Niv. I do have a question about the switching of C’s to one spot in all formats. Is this going to cause the game limit for C’s to go down or will it stay at 162? I ask because, and this is purely anecdotally, I would think a lot of catchers take most of the same days off in baseball (Wednesday/Thursday day game and the Sunday game), so it may be a tad tricky to get to 162.
Nope, game limits won’t be changing for any position. You do bring up a good point and I’ll consider it when figuring out how to proceed with point 3 above.
Alright, sounds good. Thanks for considering that. I would imagine if there is only one spot for C that you would basically have to roster three C’s in order to meet the 162 games though, which is kinda suboptimal. However, it does eliminate the ability for someone to not roster a C at all for some of the season.
My personal opinion is that 2-C H2H leagues would be less messy than 1-C standard leagues, if the choice is only between one or the other. Not to mention that standard leagues will (presumably) still be the core Ottoneu product, and it seems odd to alter that formula because of H2H. I am excited about H2H and will roll with it either way, JMHO.
Seems my point 3 above gave the impression it would have to be one way or another for technical reasons. For this I apologize! When I was writing out that post, I was thinking about the point @murph3699 made and mulling over how 2 C slots allow teams to game that slot and only roster Cs for half the season in current season-long formats. So, I was just thinking “maybe I should rip off this band-aid completely”.
I am leaning towards 1 C for H2H and 2 C for season-long formats (roto/points), because in the last couple of hours I’ve gotten less annoyed about gaming 2 C slots.
I personally want you to stay less annoyed about the two C slots for roto/points… Haha.
I’m a little disappointed in the pitcher restriction but over all I’m happy with the H2H format coming to Ottoneu.
Really? Sorry. Didn’t mean to blow up your spot lol
No not at all, it’s been a long weird day and I’m making zany jokes
We are going to stick with 1 C slots in H2H formats and 2 C slots in roto and season-long points.
For leagues that opt-in to playoffs, you will have 1 C slot in your playoff matchups.
Will there be an option for divisions?
Yes, you can have 2 or 3 divisions and you can re-align them in the off-season.
Is H2H available yet? Am I missing something on the league creation page?